|18th May 2004 (17:11:36) - Finian Maynard (finian11 at hotmail dot com), wrote :|
Your prize money split is a little too ambitious in my view and is also very heavily biased to the top places (which means you unfortunately) so it will be very hard to sell this split yourself. I think it is great that more women are getting involved but that doesn't necessarily mean that the prize money should be split to accomodate this increase in participation yet. The prize money levels are still relatively low compared to the 'glory days' of years past and there are still many men competitors who must fight it out for just 16 paying positions and also earn a living on tight budgets.
Just my opinion, regards, Finian.
|18th May 2004 (18:15:46) - Dorota, wrote :|
It is very hard to decide what is best for the sport and what percentage is right /or wrong depending how you look at it.
The way I look at it is that top three women at World or European Championships should get equally the same prize money as top three men.
Or there should be no prize money at all.
Because we never reached 25 participants at the events last three years women at any championships were getting 15% of prize money and it was going to 4 of them. That meant that the winner of the men's fleet was getting more than all women fleet. Does that sound fair to you?
I understand it would be better to spread the money down more, however I did this proposal according to the current men prizes,where nobody seems to complain. Another thing is that I believe title and the money is prestige and I don't think we should take that away from top competitors. Make the fight worth it!
However I fully understad your point of you and I know as a top sailor i will always get the criticism if I am involved in such controversial issues. Guess what though, I did this proposal and sent it out to girls in march. We changed it a bit according to their views, but in general they accepted it. Nobody came up with another proposal. I think I know why. It is just pretty difficult to make it up and stand up for it.
I think this increase in money can motivate women just because something has changed and they can see that somebody's looking after them and if they show up at the events in bigger number they can also be appreciated and get some attention.
Please keep in mind women are not employed by industry, 99% buys their equipment. They are smaller and slower than guys. They go to school or work and windsurf in their very limited free time. There must be some or other way to help their fleet to grow. And I believe the move IFWC Comittee just made will help it. We made big step last three years and I believe we are still aiming in right direction.
|18th May 2004 (20:46:37) - ian (ian at surfkraft dot com), wrote :|
|it'd be good to see more and more women racing as you guys (sorry, gals!) have proven it's possible to compete with most of the guys, although the top guys always seem to have the edge. Perhaps an answer is to encourage a major sponsor for the womens fleet prize money, seperate to the mens fleet prize fund, then split whatever comes in? In another way this may explain why the women receive less prize money when splitting the funds, especially with a 146 men / 21 women split on entry. for example you could perhaps expect a 50/50 split of the fund if there were 146 men / 146 women for sure, but why limit funds according to entry list if the women are able to attract their own prize money sponsor ? just a thought and possibly way off, especially when all i've won recently was a nice Sola t shirt in a raffle !|
good luck and well done to everyone at garda .....
|19th May 2004 (05:23:16) - brian (brian at windstock dot us), wrote :|
|maybe larger prize money for womens FW racing would mean more PWA women who only do waves would take up some racing again, maybe. That could make the womens compitition a little closer.|
But it is very close right now. Some of the top girls in the class are as fast as some of the top guys. Maybe even faster in some conditions.
The email thing works well in our local region.
All stay in contact, find out when available and how far willing to travel. We have been able to throw a race together with 20 particpants, within 3 hours of home. All in a couple of days. The web is great. Glad to see you have found a new ways to take advantage of it.
Libia's gonna compete at the US open.
I also recently met another girl that may take up compititions when her skill level will allow her to be compititive. Your hard work is begining to pay off. I will predict that the womens fleet will double in particpation this year.
Hopefully some new sponsers will see the marketing value of this.
|21st May 2004 (00:41:14) - Devon Boulon, wrote :|
|Darota it is good to see the Women out there racing but for split of the prize money it does not seem so fair to the guys for the girls to take more money for a couple of reasons. there are so many more guys than girls that we have to fight against many more top level racers to get our share of the prize money so that it means that we do not get top results near as often. as say you would. if we even went as far as to say that the top three women get the same as the top three men by the end of the year you in particular will have made considerably more in prize money than the top guy. im not saying that the girls are not competitive but it is a much more consistent top three in the women than the Men. because of the low prize money level and the growing number of top level male competitors it is much more difficult for us to make it in the prize money than for the top women. also it is the mens class and the larger number of competitors which is getting the events and prize money. so right now you are just trying to jump in and take more of our money. right now the prize fund is just to low for good money for windsurfing.|
if you really want to show that the Women are competitive for prize money you should try to organize more women only events.
im sorry if you feel that im to hard about this. but we are all struggling.
all the best
|21st May 2004 (11:24:03) - Dorota, wrote :|
|Devon, the way it has been was wrong. All I am doing is changing it for better, so it makes more sense and stops looking comically. You're not a girl and I don't expect you to support this idea. But you should try to understand that if more women races and does windsurfing in generall, the better it is also for industry thus for you, and all men who make money windsurfing. Please try to have faith in me and believe that I am not trying to change it so it directly makes me more money. My main priority is the interest of women fleet, I simply don't want their fleet to disapear from the scene how it happened with pba/pwa. I agree that today me and few other girls are the top, but it's temporary. The more sense racing does for women the more of them will start to turn pro. The idea of former women cup, silver fleet, training camps and finally money increase is all part of one project - make the number of girls bigger and make their racing more competitive and interesting.|
As for my personal future involvments as soon as I graduate from university I will decide what direction to go to and who knows, maybe organizing professional women tour could be it.
For now it's not yours (men) or ours (women) money. It is the policy of FW class supported by National associations worldwide.
Thanks and regards.
|21st May 2004 (11:29:52) - Christine (csj944 at aol dot com), wrote :|
Believe me the guys have it a LOT better than the girls! Dorota (and Karin - that's from wave/freestyle too) are the ONLY two women who are full time professional and make their living from windsurfing in the Formula women fleet.
There is not the same support from manufacturers for top women racers as there are for top men racers. The main (valid) reason for this is that they do not see it will increase their sales. They do not see it will increase their sales because of the low number of women participants, and we therefore have a chicken and egg situation!
What are we going to do to encourage more women to participate? The only option is to increase the prize money to make it viable for women, who could make the top 8, to travel and compete at these events.
When we see the fleet size grow there will be more of a buzz about women's racing. You should embrace women's racing, encourage women to participate, and really not see us simply as detracting from your prize money!
|21st May 2004 (11:48:15) - Christine (csj944 at aol dot com), wrote :|
About the top 3 staying the same in girls, and not in the guys. The top 3 guys are pretty consistent too actually:
Worlds 2001 - Kevin, Antoine, Wojtek
Worlds 2002 - Kevin, Antoine, Wojtek
Worlds 2003 - Steve, Antoine, Wojtek
Worlds 2001 - Dorota, Lucy, Karin
Worlds 2002 - Dorota, Lucy, Christine
Worlds 2003 - Christine, Lucy, Dorota
So what? Kevin, Antoine and Wojtek don't deserve the prize money because they are always there? They train, fight and race the same as us so where's the difference?
|21st May 2004 (12:53:41) - Dave (dave__m at hotmail dot com), wrote :|
|The numbers at the Europeans show that just under 20% of woman received prize money - while 10% of guys received prize money. So there is an imbalance either way.|
I don't think it is fair for the guys to take a paycut on the premise of "increasing the number of woman windsurfing". The split at the Europeans 1:7 men:woman i think is pretty close to the true split of the general windsurfing population - or at the least it is in your favour. - So I think you already have high numbers.
Promoting womans windsurfing while ignoring men will only encourage the sport to suffer. Less men windsurfing = less money all around. Remember that your argument works both ways. You can't focus on the few while ignoring the masses.
|21st May 2004 (19:56:51) - Tammy, wrote :|
|Dave and Devon are correct|
|21st May 2004 (22:48:25) - Devon Boulon, wrote :|
|Darota believe me i dont want to ignore the women but Dave said it well. something needs to be done to help but i dont think that this is quite the fairest way to go about it.|
also for the top three the worlds was just one competition were the top three were so close. you have to look at all international races.
|21st May 2004 (22:52:43) - Devon Boulon, wrote :|
|also one last thing Christine. compare how many men make a living in formula comparing to the ratio of racing men and women and i dont think that you will find it any better.|
|22nd May 2004 (17:21:38) - brian (brian at windstock dot us), wrote :|
|No ones gonna put up the cash for somthing that isn't there yet. It just ain't like, first you pay us then will figure out how to build it.|
As the womens fleet grows so will the prize money.
It's not a guy/girl issue.
Its about who spends more on there stuff.
Convince and prove to the sponsors that there investment is will be worth it and you will have your blank check.
|22nd May 2004 (18:49:02) - Jesper Vesterstrøm / D-111 (vesters at attglobal dot net), wrote :|
|Honestly Christine, Dorota, DO YOU REALLY think that making a split in the prize money will encourage more women to do formula and pay for their trips around the world!!!! It will be the same 3 girlies in the top getting a little more on the account after each event. A few hundred Euros will NOT make the difference in the budget, it dosnīt really do for us men already. |
I came 9 th. In the hardest Formula fleet ever, speending 5 weeks in Australia, 5 weeks in Israel and 2 weeks in France 2 prepare. All other top 10-15 guys trained hard too... For a 9 th. I got 460 EURO, WOW... You know how much I spend on travelling and to buy equipment this Winther??? Probaly more than 10.000 Euro like the rest of the guys.
We all do it because we love it, we all want to win,becuase as you can see the prize money dont give us much to live for, so something is driving us to do it.
So next year, if your propossal go trought a 9 th. in the men can look forward to 230 Euro, knowing that top 3 in the girls making lots more and spending half the money on preparing for the season...Sorry, dont want to rude, but just want to put it for you in black and white... WE ALL SUFFER BUT TO SPLIT THE MONEY AND GIVING A 9 TH. IN THE WOMANS FLEET 230 EURO IS A JOKE AND WILL NOT EFFECT THE NUMBER OF WOMEN IN THE CLASS
Its not all about money but love for the sport......
|23rd May 2004 (11:04:46) - Rio Carnival (RIO at Carnival dot esp), wrote :|
|Well guys, |
I think your best bet would be to make only one fleet. so the best windsurfers will get the prize money....it could be a guy or a girl..we should not make sex differences.
|23rd May 2004 (14:10:57) - JP (jptobin at hotmail dot com), wrote :|
|Come on kids stop your whining. |
Better hope formula does not go Olympic otherwise later to your prize money.
Its about the love of the game, if you want money go play tennis.
|23rd May 2004 (19:05:50) - Lucy Horwood (luce982 at aol dot com), wrote :|
|Its a very difficult situation and its not ideal for any of us at the moment. I can see the guys point and the girls point (being one) and I think that the prize money issue is a joke. Instead of biccering between ourselfs and moaning because Dorota is actually doing something about the money for the girls, we should put the pressue on the organisers to get more money for ALL of us....and at the moment its looking pretty diabolicall for all of us since we are all trying to make some money and there are no **c**** events to go to........|
1 other thing - its not just a girls/boys prize money issue, we should look at the money we are allocated from the PWA, if I remember correctly the wave men get 55000suro, women waves 15000 and race (TOGETHER) 35000, I think that for a joint wave/race event that the prize money should be split between the disciplins fairly - the wave competitors make more money sitting on the beach at events like Sylt, than us guys do working our butts off on a race course every day.....might enter the waves!
|23rd May 2004 (23:08:10) - Christine, wrote :|
Well we will see whether this new prize money split makes any difference to the size of the women's fleet. I think you should be prepared to eat your words! - I can almost guarantee that Leba (the first event that this split comes into action) will have the largest women's fleet ever.
I didn't go away this winter to train because I don't have the means to. So therein lies another difference already.
Anyhow as Dorota pointed out in an email to me this decision has already been passed, so this is just a discussion really to enable people to express their points of view.
My point of view is all the prize money should be split 50/50. Now that would be what I would call a fair split.
|24th May 2004 (00:01:07) - Mike ISV-2 (wsurfmike at viaccess dot net), wrote :|
|I'm quite surprised to find this forum is still here! I thought it was just something set up for the garda event - Cool! |
I'm only a part time pro sailor (I've got a company here in the islands) I made the decision to "go for it "a bit later in life than most of you and I'm pretty inexperienced still about alot of the "ins and outs" as my first top level events where just last year... But I share Lucy's distress with the sudden lack of events... Security concerns and terrorism might be in play here...Hard to travel as it is; last minute arrangements are expensive (from where I live!) sudden cancellations make it tough to plan but I love the sport competition so i'll do what I have to do...
As a part of the current "more racers" solution, as I'm not a top racer (Yet!!) maybe it would be a good idea to increase the overall size of "the pie" the top men and women are fighting for(?) In the US, the top money sports all have arrangements for good spectator viewing that the public pays for when they go to any event, it pays the salaries of the competitiors!; When I went to compete in Leba last year I was blown away by all the spectators on the beach. The intrest is there and in many euorpean countries so maybe a percentage of spectators would be willing to pay for a better view: suggest to the event comittee's that a small fleet of boats be available for paid seating above the windward and below the leeward marks (away from the start!)... other boats could be kept away, safety instructions posted, that kind of thing... At first it would surely be a charter scenario with hired boat captians getting a percentage, but if the idea works, with more and more energetic (as I have seen!) Euro fans wanting to be able to get "sideline seats" to cheer their favorites as they make the marks and bear off or round up, someone is going to be smart enough to invent a "seating barge" that could be trailerd and taken to all events by Eurocup and PWA (picture one of those pool events in your mind and take it outside!?)... as long as the image of the sport remains postive it would seem to be a natural progession >> for men AND WOMEN >> Its going to take all of us, (top 5 folks and "bottom feeders" like me!) to make this work as a professional sport, especially for those who want to make a full time living at this...I really think the intrest energy is there; I couldnt believe it when Kids would come up to ME in Dranske and Leba and ask for an autograph! How energetic is that?!! Are people who pay go to tennis matches over stupid? >> no, they are dedicated!
Dorota, your struggle reminds me alot of Billie Jean King of tennis fame back in the day when women were not making money in that sport (look at them now!), and yes I was around and used to play competitve tennis! Most of the earliest windsurfing gear is younger than I am!! Right or wrong, keep coming with the ideas; the strength of any sport lies in that alone...don't mind my young and talented friend ISV-1, he means well.... and I have shoes older than he is!!
If you guys dont like my idea, just bury me on the start line again at the next event, I'll get the message!
All the best, ISV-2
|24th May 2004 (00:36:23) - Dennis, wrote :|
|REPLY TO: 23rd May 2004 (23:05:10) - Christine|
Christine, 50/50 fair split? Are you serieus? What did you smoke when you were typing? Good stuff you get ;)
You should listen more to Lucy because she sounds correct.
Splitting the price money is no reason to get more women competing in formula. I think free entry for an event(for women) will encourage more women. I guess that this is a better option then splitting the price money.
If you want to make money with windsurfing, you have to wake up because you are in dreamland(except some exceptions, but they don't make their money with pricemoney, but with sponsor deals and stuff).
|24th May 2004 (09:48:24) - peter, wrote :|
|the last EC in torbole was super good and competitive event for men and women. probably, most ever. unfortunately, without much prize money... and as it looks today, because of the recession in europe, strong EUR and may be the luck of good, strong and enthusiastic event organizers, will affect quite a lot the FW racing circuit.|
as far as prize money goes for men and women, the men should get more of it and not 50/50 as proposed here by women. the main reasons are well written in some topics above.
just as another note, yes, the mens fleet is super competitive today and probably it has been always from the first day it started. if there are 15,000 EUR to split that there is only this amount and this is very low figure in general, unfortunately. to compare 147 men and 20 women, how can you make it equal 50/50? unfortunately, there is only this amount and no more and this is the biggest problem. i understand some womens attempts to try to get more cash and that is OK from they part. but please, you can not compare the competitivness and size of the fleets today.
if you would ask to split cash in current OD olympic fleet, then it could be the more realistic question, because the level of racing and size of the womens fleet(60 women took part in 2004 Worlds in Turkey). it is much more stronger there comparing FW. and alisson showed they level pretty clearly in last FW EC...
anyway, as it looks today, with all love to women in general, your request for 50/50 split based on todays situation is just unfair.
|24th May 2004 (11:00:18) - Jesper Vesterstrøm / D-111 (vesters at attglobal dot net), wrote :|
Poland always have the biggest womens fleet, because thats where most of the competetive windsurfer girls come from and I am sure at this moment Dorota is doing her best to gather everything that can stand on a board to get the number up to prove here case, but then what, next year we go to Australia for the worlds(maybe) how many will show up there you think, top 8, because they know they will get at least a little sum of money!!! You are not being fair at all, it will not get the number up for you girls lifting the prize money, maybe in Poland, but not elsewhere..
In every post in this forum guys are refering to the 147/20 ratio there is, why are you the only one that cannot see it dosnīt make sence that it should be a 50/50 split...
As said before, WE do it for the love, otherwise Tennis and Golf would have been the go, Dont think that an ekstra few hundreds in prize money will encourage girls to start windsurfing...
|24th May 2004 (15:33:02) - Dave (dave__m at hotmail dot com), wrote :|
|"This prize money split is to be ratified at AGM during World Championships" – This means that the prize split is yet to be approved by those authorised to make the decision.|
If sponsors had 2 events to choose between – the Top 21 Men or the Top 21 Woman which event do you think gets the backing? If Men have more attraction to the sponsors than Women is it fair that you would get 30% when you only have 12.5% of the racers? Surely the Men’s share of the prize pool should reflect their value in bringing in the sponsors; this of course would leave the women with less than the 15% you already receive. I just don’t think you understand the reality of the numbers. You want to be paid as much as the Men AND pay out 30% of the woman. That doesn’t work any way you bend it. You can either pay out the top 3-4 (which is the same ratio as men). Or pay down further and scale down the amounts the top few receive.
|24th May 2004 (16:23:48) - Wendy (info at wedstrijdsurfen dot nl), wrote :|
|Till now I didn't step in in this conversation. But now I think it's time to give my opinion. |
Although I am a girl and it will be an advantage for me as well, I do not agree with the 50/50 split. It absolutely doesn't sound fair. It's a fact that the number of women competing is less than the menfleet, so be realistic, and don't make such proposals!
No way that this would be interesting for women to go to more international events. I'm sorry, but I really think that the only women who agree with this proposal are those who end up in top. So this means Dorota and Christine for example. It's a bit easier to understand why you both support these proposals.
Be realistic and take some action to get more women into racing by organizing equipment on the spot and reduce registration-fee.
|24th May 2004 (21:48:08) - ian (ian at surfkraft dot com), wrote :|
|the better attended and marketed the mens & womens fleets are, the more outside money will be attracted, perhaps specifically for men or for women, then perhaps a split isn't required. this would not be favoured currently by women racers as it seems al the prize funding is really intended to reward the men as they are the main attraction. |
i see no reason why women can't attract outside backers for sponsorship of the womens fw series and also for substantial prize money funds, should the right industries be targeted and the benefits to such industries clearly identified.
this is also the case for the mens fleets, and the key has to be raising the profile of the sport outside it's own little world, we all love it and once everyone else can identify with it they will love it too, either as new participants or enthusiastic spectators ........ people watch bowls, darts, snooker etc on TV, windsurfing is a touch more exciting and should offer increased ad potential.
the idea of 50/50 split seems loaded in a wrong manner totally, although knowing both CJ and Luce, i'd be happy to see them both earn a decent living from the sport !
someone mentioned all racing together and do away with prize money split, which would seem fairest all round. womens results could be extracted for independant womens placings/titles etc but prize money from overall placings regardless of sex.
the answer, get the numbers up, make the sport even bigger and better and then the corporate people will come back and throw money at us all to go and enjoy ourselves on the water !
good luck to everyone & keep supporting those who support us all ....
|25th May 2004 (12:00:41) - Arnon Dagan ISR-1 (isr9windsurf at hotmail dot com), wrote :|
|Wake up people!!! there are 2-3 women that can actualy stand on a windsurf board in these contests. with all the recpect they are crap! Most of the men never made any money at all and still 140 men showed up to the last contest so dont tell me that if the women had more money they will suddenly come. not only there level is a descrace they want more money? when there will be the same amount of women as men then they can have 50% until then give us a brake come on.. and all this people like ian or people that are not doing it professionaly and writing all this comments please come to the event I almost never see you I just read all this things in forums and maybe you can come and see for youself what is the situation at the moment where a girl that can hardly jibe not to mantion making a lay line gets the same money as Steve Allen. As for myself I am at the top for 3 years and every day I have thoughts of stoping this sport as I can hardly support myself. top guys that are making this sport happen are getting pinuts. we can all stop and let the women replace us.|
|25th May 2004 (16:04:54) - Christine (csj944 at aol dot com), wrote :|
|Guys I think some are misunderstanding what is being said here. That is MY opinion:|
"My point of view is all the prize money should be split 50/50. Now that would be what I would call a fair split."
It is not the propsal that has gone through that is at the top of the page.
|25th May 2004 (17:52:46) - Dennis, wrote :|
|So this is not about getting more girls competing, but about getting more money. And this issue startet to get more girls competing on events, and now it goes about what is fair and what is not fair. You miss your goal!|
|25th May 2004 (19:20:37) - ian (ian at surfkraft dot com), wrote :|
|sorry arnon, i didn't realise opinions from non-pro windsurfers were not welcomed. well done on your continued top class standing within the sport, but sit up and take note, without enthusiastic amateurs, there would be no professionals and ultimately no sport ..... full stop ! a little more respect for those competing at grass roots levels (manufacturer's target/paying customers) may do the top professional's own standings in the sport more good than harm, and that's what all potential sponsors (that's the lot with the cheque books !) are looking for. |
|25th May 2004 (20:02:54) - Arnon Dagan ISR-1 (isr9windsurf at hotmail dot com), wrote :|
|Ian I didnt mean harm I am a stupid windsurfer but obviously I understand the value of enthusiastic amateurs. this was not my point. My point was (beside telling the facts - the girls dont have the level or the numbers to deserve more money) that people that have there own income and are not depended or not planning on depending on windsurfing only ,shouldnt interfer in matteres like this as they can harm the pepople that are depended on this decition. |
|25th May 2004 (20:15:33) - ceri williams (ceri at offshore-sports dot co dot uk), wrote :|
|Hi , this forum and the issue of prize money (both for men and women ) has been both exasperating and illuminating ! |
I guess it is about time the male members of the FW committee came clean and admitted they agreed -unanimously -with the final proposal from dorota (speaking for all the women sailors that attended the sailors meetinfg in Torbole )
The full details of the committee meeting will be published on this website -sure to stir up more controversy !- BUT the committee met face to face and made some decisions . Like it or not that is why they were elected . YOU -the members . the sailors - will have the final say at the Class AGM . Please make sure that you dsscus all details with your (national ) delegate to the AGM .
Forums are good , but you need to have all the facts before you make comment -otherwise the facts can get distorted .Apologies for not reacting quicker and putting the info on the ONB .
For sure you will see plenty of news on the website in the next week .
We ,the committee , are striving hard to improve the sport for ALL of you - support our efforts (RHODES !!-info to follow ) and we may be able to build on the success of FW Europeans .
I personally know Arnon and Ian -they are both right ! They are on the same side -let us not score an own goal .
|26th May 2004 (13:03:13) - Christine (csj944 at aol dot com), wrote :|
We are not talking about the ratio of men to women that exists already, we are talking about trying to improve the ratio towards more women. That is how can we encourage more women to participate?
Olympic class is a totally different ball game. In general there is way more money involved for women. I believe this is why quite a few seasoned PWA women windsurfers swtiched to the Mistral Olympic class. The reason there is way more women competing in Olympic class is because they get paid by their national governing bodies to do so. Good for them. I hope and pray some good equipment gets selected for 2008.
|29th May 2004 (08:29:29) - JP (jonpaultobin at hotmail dot com), wrote :|
|Hi Christine, hows it going? |
Is there not more of an oppourtunity to generate income from industry endorsements?
Not all national governing bodies are created equal, how many national govening bodies outside GBR actually pay their athletes, in most cases it is generally a retrospective reimbursement for competition related costs.
R.e "Seasoned" (its ok to say old, Christine) PWA woman making the switch from my expierience this is primarily due to the simplicity, fairiness, economics to name a few that Olympic Windsurfing provides.
These facts are generally why there are so many athletes from underdeveloped nations competing successfully at Olympic Level.
Pray hard for the Mistral its the only way forward as there is no way that anything but a long board (centreboard) will race in Beijing 2008.
The current Olympic formula is proven and works if there is a change it is for political reasons and not for the good of "windsurfing" at Olympic level.
If it is political then are the correct people in the right places in sailing.
|17th March 2008 (19:15:31) - Sensbachtal (sensbachtal at mail dot ru), wrote :|
|Just wanted to say Hello to everyone. |
Much to read and learn here, I'm sure I will enjoy !